MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
The Pentagon is mounting a review of women in ground combat jobs. The review is to ensure what it calls the military effectiveness of having several thousand female soldiers and Marines in infantry, armor and artillery. That's according to a memo obtained by NPR. Our Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman is here with this exclusive reporting. Hey, Tom.
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hey, Mary Louise.
KELLY: Women have been in ground combat positions. This is not new. They've been doing it for a decade. Why is this review happening?
BOWMAN: Well, clearly because Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has been critical of women serving in ground combat jobs, saying when he was a Fox News host, quote, "it hasn't made us more effective." Now, the memo from Pentagon Undersecretary for Personnel Anthony Tata uses that very language, saying the independent review will gauge the operational effectiveness of women in these jobs. Tata is asking for the Army and Marine Corps to provide all data on, you know, readiness, training, performance, casualties and command climate, as well as any internal studies that refer to the integration of women in combat. This review will be carried out by the Institute for Defense Analyses, a nonprofit corporation that does studies for the Pentagon.
KELLY: Although am I not right in remembering that Hegseth softened his stance on this in his confirmation hearing? I remember questions from Senator Tammy Duckworth, who is a veteran herself. And I remember him saying, yes, if women meet the standard, they can serve in ground combat jobs.
BOWMAN: You know, he did, but he returned to this theme during an address to admirals and generals at Marine Base Quantico back in September. He said he didn't want his son to serve alongside troops who are out of shape or females who can't meet the same physical standards as men. And he said women as well as men must meet, quote, "the highest male standard only" for these combat jobs. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PETE HEGSETH: When it comes to any job that requires physical power to perform in combat, those physical standards must be high and gender-neutral. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it. That is not the intent, but it could be the result.
BOWMAN: It's important to point out, Mary Louise, that in all these ground combat jobs, both men and women must meet the same standard now, but some analysts say if that standard is raised, some women and maybe even some men won't be able to meet it.
KELLY: What do we know, Tom, about how women are actually performing in ground combat jobs?
BOWMAN: Well, there are some 3,800 women in armor - Army infantry, armor and artillery, and another 700 or so female Marines in those jobs. Now, the Army gathered extensive data on the impact of integrating women into combat arms back in between 2019 and 2023. During this period, the Army concluded there was no evidence of any degradation in unit readiness or effectiveness due to the presence of women.
KELLY: That's the Army. What about the Marine Corps?
BOWMAN: Well, first of all, their numbers of women serving in ground combat units are small - some 700 - and I haven't heard of any studies. But of course, this review would include any internal studies as part of this review. But I do know the Marines 10 years ago were wary of opening up ground combat jobs to women. They did this exercise in the Mojave Desert back in 2015, trying to determine how a unit with both men and women performed, and I witnessed that exercise.
KELLY: And just briefly, what did they find?
BOWMAN: Well, they found in this exercise gender-integrated units were slower, less lethal, more prone to injury than all-male units. The Pentagon, under then-Defense Secretary Ash Carter, said it was a faulty study. They didn't look at the individual achievement of women. But clearly, this issue is not resolved by any means.
KELLY: NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman, thank you.
BOWMAN: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
