Is the Catholic Church anti-gay? And is it losing the argument on gay marriage? Those were two questions for New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan yesterday on NBC's "Meet The Press."
Moderator David Gregory asked Cardinal Timothy Dolan if gay marriage will someday be legal everywhere?
"I'd be a Pollyanna to say that there doesn't seem to be kind of a stampede to do this."
Stampede? That’s not how Scott Fearing, acting director of Rochester's Gay Alliance sees it.
"We've got a decade of experience with same gender marriages out of Massachusetts and in other states. None of the states have fallen off into the ocean. No plagues of locusts have arrived. People are still getting married. Heterosexuals are still having families. We've not seen a huge social shift in those places that have embraced equality."
Dolan explained why the church is losing the argument on gay marriage:
"Maybe we've been outmarketed. Sometimes we've been caricatured as being anti-gay. And, as much as we say 'wait a minute, we're pro-marriage, we're pro-traditional marriage, we're not anti-anybody'."
Fearing said, "It's almost sad, because, at the core, this issue isn't about marketing, it's about people coming around to understanding and becoming more accepting."
Cardinal Dolan likened the marriage rights debate to abortion in 1973, right after Roe v. Wade, saying people thought the issue would go away in a couple of years, and it's still with us. He thinks the battle for marriage equality will take a while.
Fearing added, "To this day, they still are wrestling with issues of equality of women. So, to know that they're still wrestling with issues around gay marriage is not at all surprising. What we know is that a number of congregations and local clergy have done their best to be as inclusive as possible."
"I don't know, when you have forces like Hollywood, when you have forces like politicians, when you have forces like some opinion-molders that are behind it,” said Dolan, “it's a tough battle."
Fearing says for many Catholics who identify as gay, the mixed messages coming from the Church can be confusing.
"I can't believe that they aren't opposed to inclusion when they're so quick to say "we won't include you." It's a very tricky double message that they send."
Cardinal Dolan says the church won't "give up" on the issue of marriage rights, and Fearing sees it, too.
"No, I don't believe that they will give up on it, and again, we have to remember they're still battling about issues of women's equality so I'm sure they're in it for the long haul."
"The 'official' Catholic church is not alone in their stand against LGBT individuals as well as the same sex and marriage equality debates. There are - if not more - at least as many churches that are open and accepting and welcoming. You can turn to different faith communities and find those that are supportive and those that are against."
Is there optimism? Fearing points out that recently, Pope Francis has said a number of what he calls "interesting things" that resonate with progressive Catholics.